"The Swan Hotel is a utopia composed of women and children. It has a beautiful name, but it is very fragile and very short-lived." After eight years, following the transformation of "Cocoon", writer Zhang Yueran launched a new novel The novel "Swan Hotel". The story begins with a

Writer Zhang Yueran

"The Swan Hotel is a utopia composed of women and children. It has a beautiful name, but it is very fragile and very short-lived."

After eight years, following the transformation of "Cocoon", writer Zhang Yueran launched A new novel "Swan Hotel". The story begins with a thrillingly planned kidnapping. Nanny Yu Ling was instigated by her boyfriend, and the two kidnapped their employer's son, a seven-year-old boy, Kuan Kuan, on the pretext of a spring outing. However, during their spring outing, they learned that the boy's family was on trial for corruption. With no hope of asking for ransom, the kidnapping suddenly became meaningless. On the way, the boy bought a goose worth 500 yuan, and Yu Ling found a shovel used to kill people in her boyfriend's car. This kidnapping was not as simple as she thought. Yu Ling decided to leave her boyfriend and return to the mansion with Kuan Kuan. In the living room, a camping tent was set up wide. "This is the Swan Hotel," the little boy said.

As a family collapsed, the nanny changed from an accomplice in kidnapping a young child to the child's only support. Faced with the boy's trust and dependence, and the temptation and instigation of her boyfriend, she once struggled between morality and sin. The novel places the cruelty of reality and the innocence of fairy tales in the same space. The dilemma of class and the conflict of people's hearts are undercurrents at the bottom. A contemporary story about good and evil, love and sin, friendship and growth, using words to build a "Swan Hotel" for homeless people.

"Female friendship" is an important perspective from which to discuss this novel. Yu Ling is a nanny, and the hostess Qin Wen is a painter. They come from completely different worlds, but they have a special trust in each other, resulting in a complex and profound friendship.

From the friendship, mutual understanding and redemption of two women, "Swan Hotel" writes about the temptations, dilemmas and breakthroughs faced by women of different identities today.

"She has traded with fate so many times, and this time she seems to have finally not lost. The only regret is that she failed to shake hands with Qin Wen. Maybe they will never be friends, but it is not that important. She has Saved her."

"Female friendship" has always been a hot topic in popular culture and academic research. In the field of literature, the writing of sisterhood is also one of the themes that cannot be bypassed in feminist literature. For example, the fourth season of "My Brilliant Girlfriend", adapted from Italian writer Elena Ferrante's "Naples Tetralogy" into a film and television drama, recently launched. The reason why this series has been able to attract readers and viewers for a long time is also because of its focus on A moving portrait of two women's 50-year friendship.

Writer Zhang Yueran

Zhang Yueran pointed out that works like "My Genius Girlfriend" and the emergence of more works by female writers have made "female friendship" an issue that is difficult for us to ignore today. "But I feel that no matter how much it is talked about, it is still an under-told theme. From the 19th to the 20th century, literary history can be seen everywhere in male friendships, while alliances between women always appear Very fragile, and their friendships were always very monotonous." She believes that current literary creation lacks a richer display and exploration of "female friendship". "Although the influence of writers in this era is becoming smaller and smaller, in an era of declining literature, writers should still take action."

Interview

1. The Swan Hotel is a utopia composed of women and children

Nandu: What was the inspiration for "Swan Hotel"? What prompted you to write this story?

Zhang Yueran: The conception of this novel originated from a news report similar to "the dismissal of a high-ranking official." I wonder what changes would happen within a family in this situation? Because usually there is a nanny in such a family. The nanny is originally at the bottom of the family and an outsider. But under the drastic changes caused by the incident, the nanny's power may come to an end. A very high position, and at the same time, the relationship with the children in the family will become very close. I have always liked to observe the stable (or solidified) power relationships in change, and this writing is also based on this kind of thinking.

Nandu: "Swan Hotel" is a name with fairy tale imagination. Why did you use the small tent built by the little boy Kuan Kuan as the title of the book?

Zhang Yueran: The goose in the novel itself has a deeper meaning. The little boy thought it was a swan, but in fact it was just a goose. In other words, only we adults may pay special attention to distinguishing between ordinary geese and swans, but not in the eyes of children. I think "geese and swans" also metaphors a kind of hierarchy, a kind of class, a kind of upper-lower relationship. The naming of a goose by a child as a swan itself is a kind of destruction of order, as this story tells. so. So the Swan Hotel is a place where order is broken. It is a utopia composed of women and children. It has a beautiful name, but it is very fragile and very short-lived.

Nandu: In an explanation of your new book, you said: ""Swan Hotel" tells a story about going from evil to good. This is rare in the novels I have written." From evil to good is also the protagonist. Yu Ling’s general fate decision and direction. How do you understand good and evil in the novel?

Zhang Yueran: The protagonist Yu Ling is definitely not a flawless person, but I think she should not be distinguished by simple good and evil. Just like we want to separate swans from geese, we always try to separate good from evil and draw the boundaries, but in fact it is very difficult. Good elements and evil elements are present in each of us, and they will change in different environments. It is during these changes that we can see more clearly what is inside us that we cannot usually see. Own. Yu Ling has indeed experienced a transformation, but rather than saying that she has become kinder, it is better to say that she is more aware of her inner needs and can take more control of her life.

Nandu: But at the same time, we also see that many readers like the character Yu Ling very much. Did you also give her some heroic qualities?

Zhang Yueran: I am very happy that readers can like this character. After the publication of my last novel, Cocoon, many readers thought the two protagonists were very unlikeable people. But I originally wanted to discuss the kind of shadow or negative things that history and family of origin cast on people, so those characters are definitely not cute. But it's not just "Cocoon". It seems that I am better at creating disgusting characters. Maybe I think those disgusting things can best show the deep humanity. However, it is still a very happy thing to have a few lovely people in my novels. I love reading about cute people myself, so I'm glad Yu Ling can be cute.

But what I also want to say is that this novel is written from Ling’s perspective. We will always be limited to Yu Ling’s perspective. Yu Ling’s views may not be the same as the author’s views. For example, when we are discussing her heroism, discussing female fantasies, but as the author, do I completely identify with her? I don't think so. Careful readers may be able to read something more subtle and multifaceted.

Nandu: When the last novel "Cocoon" was published, everyone thought it was your transformational work. In terms of writing structure, you adopted a binaural structure at that time. Eight years later, "Swan Hotel" ”, what new ideas and explorations do you think you have gained about the language and structure of the novel?

Zhang Yueran: Many people who have read "Swan Hotel" will first feel that the language is very different from before, because the language I used in "Cocoon" is more lyrical, subjective, slow-paced, and the narrative efficiency is relatively low, because It is the voice of two people, and it also carries more memories. But in this book, from the beginning of writing, I believed that it should have a lighter, relatively faster-paced narrative voice, and it is a third-person narrative, so there is a certain distance between the reader and the protagonist. It will also be more neutral.

In fact, it took me a long time to gradually become competent with such a voice. Maybe because I started writing at a very early age, whether in the first person or the third person, a habit I developed is to let that voice It is subjective, and you want to use it to carry emotions, use emotions to coerce readers, and impress readers. Therefore, the voice has a strong tendency, and it has a very strong emotional color in it. You hope that the reader will Happy, sad at that time, especially sympathizing with that character at a certain moment, etc. It was only after a long time that I washed away these things from the narrative voice and turned it into a simpler, cleaner, and purer voice. What are the benefits of doing this? Maybe it can handle more texts, such as "Swan Hotel", a story with a strong plot and many ups and downs in a short period of time. This kind of voice will make readers trust it more.

2, How can women’s expression go deeper and further?

Nandu: Like "Cherry Far Away", "Da Qiao Xiao Qiao", "Swan Hotel"... many of your works are stories centered around two women. In this work, "female friendship" is also a topic that many readers will pay attention to. How do you understand the particularity of "female friendship"? Why are you interested in such a character setting?

Zhang Yueran: We have talked a lot about "female friendship" in the past few years, almost as much as we have in all the past years. Because of works like "My Genius Girlfriend" and the emergence of more works by female writers, it has become a It’s a problem that we can hardly ignore. But I feel that no matter how much it is talked about, it is still a subject that has not been fully discussed. Just like when we look at novels from the 19th and 20th centuries and open a book at random, male friendship is everywhere. Women are isolated atoms, living under the roof of men. Their alliances are always very fragile, and their friendships are always very monotonous and full of stereotypes.

's display and exploration of female friendship is in the contemporary era. It is only now that we have more opportunities to see the richer aspects of female friendship. In China, it is even more necessary to write about female friendship, because it is even rarer. Whether in modern or ancient literary works, you can think of very few, such as the relationship between mother and daughter (which in my opinion is also a (a broad sense of female friendship), the most profound portrayal of the mother-daughter relationship we can think of is Zhang Ailing's "The Story of the Golden Lock", which is very cruel and dark.

Exploring further down or deeper, there are still many relationships that have not been fully written, such as the female master-student relationship. Maybe I am a teacher in a university, so I have more experience with this. Compared with male teachers, female teachers have many things that are not so "taken for granted", and the relationship with students is not so "taken for granted". Women The relationship between teacher and disciple seems to be a contemporary relationship, so it has never been written down. Anyway, I care about these.

Nandu: We have seen that you have made a lot of voices and public expressions around feminist writing, female writers, gender issues, etc. As a literary writer, what positive significance do you think such a voice can have? What role can writers play in this process?

Zhang Yueran: It is very important to speak out, although I don’t know if anyone will listen. I’ve always felt that it’s easy for women to be silent, or to stop speaking easily. Especially as I grow older, I develop a habit of feeling that no one will listen to me if I speak, so I gradually stop speaking. Expression itself is an invitation to alliance, an invitation to connect, and we always find allies and like-minded people through ideas. Therefore, if women do not express and speak out, they will have no way to better connect with other women, and there will be no so-called friendship. It is difficult for us to expect silent people, or people who acquiesce to life like this, to influence the world. So I think women should still express themselves more.

In this era, the influence of writers is becoming smaller and smaller. This is understandable because we have richer media and more diverse so-called celebrities, intellectuals, and opinion leaders. Therefore, writers are no longer the only celebrity group carrying culture as they were in the past. But let’s not talk about expanding one’s influence, but what should a writer do for the sake of literature itself? In an era of declining literature, writers should still take action. For me, whether it is teaching, editing magazines, or organizing literary competitions... I think they are all part of literature. If I don't do these things, I will lose my passion for writing.

Nandu: In recent years, excellent feminist works have continued to emerge. In the field of film, from France's "Falling Judgment" to China's "Hot and Furious", they have aroused enthusiastic responses. They may also represent There are different aspects of feminist expression. Do you have a standard for measuring feminist works in your own mind?

Zhang Yueran: A few years ago, it was hard for us to imagine that the mainstream of movies was like this, but there have been such big changes in the past few years. In particular, "The Falling Trial" has been enthusiastically received in a small area in China. to discuss. In the past, it would have been hard to imagine a movie in which the sins and desires of a heroine were so obscure. I think when audiences and readers can accept that women are a richer container, a constantly changing, volcano-like existence, rather than a slogan or a simple slogan, then feminism can go deeper. place when.

Another work that I like very much is "Tar". "Taar" was not made by a female director, nor is it a feminist film by many people's standards. But it's a film about women. The touches and revelations it brings are not necessarily less than those of feminist films that advocate more clearly.

3, "When a movie is adapted well, it is often when it does not follow the original work."

Nandu: What specific work did you participate in in the movie "Qiao Yan's Mind", and what were your original intentions and ideas as a screenwriter?

Zhang Yueran: I participated in some script adaptation work. The original intention of participating in this project is because I very much agree with the direction proposed by director Zhao Deyin for the adaptation of this novel. In the process of working together, my knowledge and understanding of that novel also deepened. This fully demonstrates that a work is extremely open, inviting creators to enter it from different angles and show different aspects of it. The complex relationship between women is only one aspect, there is also the relationship between man and his past, the relationship between freedom and discipline, etc.

Nandu: What do you think of the image and visual transformation of literary works? How is the experience of writing a screenplay different from writing a novel?

Zhang Yueran: I find it very challenging because it is a completely different job. The most important inspiration for me from this process is to understand what film is, what literature is, what they are good at and what their respective attributes are. Now I may know better what belongs to novels and cherish them more.

Nandu: Can you tell us more about how understanding movies helps you write? The plot of "Swan Hotel" is relatively strong, and it would be a wonderful movie script if it were adapted into a film and television. Do you already have images in your mind when you are creating the text?

Zhang Yueran: Now we all seem to have the idea that when a story has more twists and turns, or its visual imagination is clearer, it will feel that it is closely related to film and television, but I personally feel that is not the case. In fact, if "Swan Hotel" were presented in another medium, it would be completely different. Moreover, whether it is Yu Ling's psychology or certain values ​​established by her perspective, they are only effective in literature. When another medium is used, it will lose this effect.

Nandu: Are there any film and television works adapted from literature that you think are very successful?

Zhang Yueran: Successful works are each their own success. I think it is more like literature giving the movie a good inspiration and inspiration.For example, "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo", the novel is very fascinating, and David Fincher's movie is also very wonderful. They are different things in themselves. "The Talented Mr. Ripley" was adapted into a TV series this year. There have been two movie versions before. In each different adaptation, Ripley has a new resonance with this era. For example, in this year's TV series, he There are new images and a closer relationship with our era. These are very wonderful adaptations. But I think the original novel "The Talented Mr. Ripley" itself has a very literary part. Only by reading the novel can you truly understand Ripley's deep heart. These film and television adaptations cannot go that deep. So often when we think an adaptation is good, it's when it doesn't follow the original work, it's when it grows into something else in a free manner.

4, "Social media will gradually take away the author's power of fiction"

Nandu: In 2017, after you won the "Novelist of the Year" at the Chinese Literature Media Awards, you said in an interview that the increasing marginalization of literary writing is an objective fact. trend. Now, seven years later, short videos and live broadcasts are developing rapidly, and cultural and entertainment methods are constantly changing. This also raises a question: Does contemporary experience still need to be expressed through literature? As a novelist, editor-in-chief of a literary magazine, and literature teacher, how do you see the future of literature?

Zhang Yueran: If you want to experience literature, it is everywhere. You can also read well-written things on new media. Literature will overflow from other media, such as public accounts and Xiaohongshu notes. , there is literature that inadvertently overflows from these places.

What is really worrying is the form of novels. The patience to read novels now is definitely much less than in the past. Who has the patience to read such a long novel and then try to gain a kind of life in the novel? In the world, a very slow, very layered experience? I don't think it's needed now. As long as you click on new media, you can see many rich people's life styles. But I think novels will not die. No other medium can truly enter the heart and life of another person who has nothing to do with yourself like novels. That kind of feeling cannot be experienced in new media or other forms. I I think there will always be people who are fascinated by novels.

Nandu: Nowadays, many writers are active in social media. For example, you have opened personal accounts on Weibo and Xiaohongshu, and you can also record short videos, do live broadcasts, and interact with netizens in the comment area. Nowadays, writers have more public expression in front of the camera. How do you think writers should use social media and deal with the relationship with the public?

Zhang Yueran: My existence is very free. In fact, my attitude is very contradictory. On the one hand, I can’t get away from social media. I started writing when forums began to become popular. I have become accustomed to having a field for discussing literature online. When you publish a novel, you will quickly Get feedback. The previous generation of writers were published in journals and didn’t know where the readers were, nor did they receive immediate feedback. The feeling was different. Sometimes I will suddenly receive an email from a very old reader from 20 years ago. He says, do you still remember? What letters did you write to me at that time? Although I don’t remember it, it is evidence that I have had in-depth communication with these readers, and they must have given me a lot of support, nourishment, and inspiration. I value this close relationship with readers. This is what I miss or like about social media.

On the other hand, I think that while social media will inevitably bring readers and authors closer, the author will always have an image that stands in front of readers before his works. In this case, the author's fictional power will be further enhanced. Steps are cut. If I chat with readers every day and suddenly tell them one day that I have written a first-person narrative novel with an 80-year-old man as the protagonist, those readers who are still chatting with me online in the morning will definitely not accept my change in the evening. As an 80-year-old man, this kind of close viewing and communication will take away the power of fiction as a writer.You will find that many writers nowadays have difficulty pushing their own boundaries with their fictional stories. In the past, the power of fiction was very powerful. It could be written about anyone. For example, Maugham could write a story that took place in the remote South Pacific just by taking a trip. We may not have such confidence now. It is difficult. Pushing your own boundaries may be a threat to narrative power posed by social media. Therefore, I feel that writers should not put themselves too much into such an environment. But now it's almost inevitable that every writer (except Ferrante) will have a public persona.

Nandu: Just now you mentioned the mentor-apprentice relationship between women. This is a quite novel angle. Can you talk about how you got along with your students when you were teaching at the university? We may all know "Writer Zhang Yueran", but we don't know much about the image of "Teacher Zhang Yueran".

Zhang Yueran: What I teach is writing. Writing itself requires acknowledging the existence of differences. If you don’t acknowledge differences, there is no need to talk about writing. You will definitely see more talent, understanding, and possibilities in some students than others. Since differences are recognized, in my mind, students are individuals, not a group. They are like stars one by one. When a teacher teaches writing, you say to her, "You should treat all students equally." This is Meaningless.

I often hear the word "teacher". It seems that every student group has a teacher. This word is very unfamiliar to me. My students, maybe they also meet privately and have regular communication with their teachers, but there is no alliance at all. My relationship with my students is one-on-one, and every relationship is different.

I really hope that my students can inspire me and make me have more enthusiasm, whether it is to teach, to think or to explore, so for this reason, I never teach the same class, because I will feel that the same My classes have almost worn me out, my enthusiasm is limited, and the enthusiasm I can arouse in students is also limited, so I will talk about different contents. I hope that in the process, my enthusiasm can drive The enthusiasm of students can inspire me to speak more and think more. Sometimes, even in undergraduate classes, some students will think of things that you have never thought of. You are inspired by your students. Whenever this happens, I will be very excited. That feeling is still great.

Nandu: What kind of homework will you assign to students?

Zhang Yueran: I will let them read various books, discuss with them, give them close reading homework, and ask them to answer the questions in the close reading like answering questions. In Nabokov's literary lectures, he would give students papers and even ask about the layout of the room. If you read carefully, you should know these strange things. Sometimes I will randomly check students, such as some subtle knowledge in novels. If they read it carefully, they will know it. Sometimes I will turn it into an in-class exam to test whether the students are serious. I read the book, but more often than not, I hope they can express what they discovered from reading. I hope they can speak more and express more.

Nandu: Are there any people in your class who want to pursue literature as a career path in the future?

Zhang Yueran: Yes, but your question is very pointed. It is equivalent to asking me where the future of creative writing students is and whether they can all become writers. Because it's obviously impossible. Especially some fresh graduates are still too young when they graduate, and they are still a long way from having enough experience to write stably. So I always have a feeling that I need to say goodbye to these students before meeting again, let them leave writing first, find a job, gain experience at work, and then confirm whether they are suitable for writing, and wait until they are in a certain Always come back to writing. Because the current situation is that it is impossible to support oneself through writing, I think that if there is such a discrete process, people who truly love writing will definitely come back.So I won’t tell students that they have to stay and write, I will support them to find other jobs. Because they are too young, they may need some experience and some time to confirm whether writing is important to them.

5, "My novel will pay more attention to our current life"

Nandu: What is your MBTI?

Zhang Yueran: I think my test is definitely not accurate. What I measured is enfp.

Nandu: It’s really surprising. We might think that most writers are “i people”.

Zhang Yueran: I don’t know if it will still be the same when I take the test again, but when I communicate with others, I don’t feel consumed. This is true. Maybe this is why I can teach writing, because I am communicating and expressing I can learn a lot from this process, which may be proof that I am an e person. The last few letters may be because I lack planning and am very idealistic.

Nandu: Can you share the books and movies you have read recently?

Zhang Yueran: I have recently been reading a collection of short stories by Katherine Mansfield, a New Zealand female writer. Because I will read it with my classmates this semester, I will read it one by one and help students choose one that I think is more suitable for them to read carefully in class. She was deeply influenced by Chekhov, or she wrote with Chekhov as her idol. Hemingway once commented venomously that she was just a fake of Chekhov, saying, "If you've seen Chekhov, you won't want to see her." But in the class on appreciation of the works of female writers that I teach now, the first thing we have to do is to take away the reference point of Chekhov - we have been using male standards to evaluate the works of female writers, and now what we have to do is, No longer read Mansfield like Chekhov, but read Mansfield like Mansfield.

In terms of movies, I recently watched Kiyoshi Kurosawa's "X Holy Ji". This is a horror movie. I didn’t know it was a horror movie when I watched it. I’m not very good at watching horror movies, so I was frightened by it without any defense. It was torture to finish watching it, but it is very exciting, especially because in the past two years, I have become very interested in psychoanalysis. This movie is about mind control, which makes some terrible things happen that can only be imagined. It was happening so vividly before my eyes. If you're afraid of horror movies like me, it's best to find a brave companion to watch them with.

Nandu: Do you have a writing plan in hand?

Zhang Yueran: There are some materials that have not been fully assembled and are currently in a state of ignorance and chaos.

Nandu: What topic will it probably be about?

Zhang Yueran: It’s still about contemporary times and women. For me, "Cocoon" is a work in which I look back at history and strive to learn and understand history. After this, my novels will focus more on our current life, which we have not yet understood clearly. It is very complicated and has many issues. You will find that it is still changing. in, so I’m still looking forward to documenting this change.

Interview and writing: Nandu reporter Zhu Rongting intern Ye Jiayi