In late August 2023, Nolan interacted with Chinese audiences at a special viewing site in Shanghai. (Photo courtesy of the film producer)
(For related reports, see "Christopher Nolan: Between Paradoxes")
"You have to understand the story through his eyes"
Southern Weekend: Most of the time, the entire movie The voice is very noisy, like Oppenheimer's restless heart. Each of your films is like a symphony with a different rhythm. Why did "Oppenheimer" choose to present it with such a noisy, tense and dense rhythm?
Nolan: For me, trying to tell the story from his perspective was about jumping into his head. This person's brain operates extremely fast and at an extremely high level, and can receive information from various dimensions such as science, culture, and technology at the same time. So we try to give the audience a sense of what it's like to have such a gift—to be aware of everything that's going on in the world—but also to feel that it's a burden, full of tension and noise and energy.
So we were trying to establish the feeling from the beginning of the film that a quantum physicist was looking at matter and he saw vibrational energy that would eventually be harnessed and released as an atomic bomb. At the same time I wanted to connect to his inner tension, this neurological energy that is so powerful yet so fragile. I wanted to make it as immersive as possible for the audience.
Southern Weekend: Compared with your previous works, this film has a lot of dialogue.
Nolan: This movie is all about dialogue, teamwork and thinking, so I tried to use different dialogue-rich movie types to compose the movie. For example, the middle part of the movie is a heist movie. The third part is based on another genre that makes good use of dialogue, the legal drama, which contains witness testimony and a natural tension where we wonder what they are going to say and how it will affect [Oppenheimer] his destiny.
shoots this way to be true to the real history, which is about a group of very talented people who communicate a lot verbally, discuss issues most of the time, and then have a little explosion every now and then. So, I wanted to show that authentically, not artificially.
Southern Weekend: In the past, most of your works were fictional events and characters. Even in " Dunkirk ", which is based on real history, the characters are also fictional. " Oppenheimer " involves real people with real names and surnames. What are the differences in creation?
Nolan: When I chose to tell the story of Dunkirk, I felt uncomfortable using real historical figures to fictionalize the plot. So in the end I came to the conclusion that I had to invent fictional characters and use them to convey the real situation to the audience.
in "Oppenheimer" almost does the exact opposite. One of the first problems when creating was how to deal with so many people involved. Normally, writers would combine four or five people into one character, but I decided not to do that. I decided to take a risk and use a lot of different faces. I believe that if we cast interesting actors and rely on their unique energy and faces, even if the audience doesn't know their names or remember who they are, they will be able to recognize them and remember their roles when needed. This is not a documentary, but most of the characters' dialogues were actually spoken in real history.
The actors come into the camera to play their respective roles, speak these lines, and advance the plot. In doing so, I wanted to try to emphasize to the audience the breadth of humanity and the huge national investment that went into building the atomic bomb. We touched so many lives - I read that about 600,000 people were involved in creating the atomic bomb. The idea I try to convey is that it was a huge team effort and you want to see a lot of faces and hear a lot of voices.
Director Nolan (right) and actor Cillian Murphy (left) who plays Oppenheimer at the filming scene of "Oppenheimer". (Photo courtesy of the film producer)
Southern Weekend: As you said, there are many characters in this movie.This may be the first time your film focuses so much on a person's inner world. Do you have any special method for handling and analyzing characters?
Nolan: I may rely more on intuition rather than rational analysis (intellectual way). When I start creating or conceptualizing a project, I look for a structural approach and how that structure frames the perspective of the film. On this ("Oppenheimer") project, I really didn't want to be in a different room from Oppenheimer, I always wanted to see things from his perspective, and that's what all the color shots were for. The black and white scenes are more objective and come more from the perspective of Lewis Strauss, played by Robert Downey Jr. .
I think writing a script is a process of finding the relationship between characters and stories. The same is true for my other films. One of my early works, "Memory ", is a story that must be unfolded entirely through characters. I think it is somewhat similar to "Oppenheimer". You have to understand it through his eyes. story.
"One of the most important stories of all time"
Southern Weekend: "Dunkirk" and "Oppenheimer" both focus on the history of World War II. Is it a coincidence, or does this history have a special meaning for you? Touched?
Nolan: Growing up in the United Kingdom and the United States, World War II is a very important cultural symbol, and movies and stories about it grew up with me. "Dunkirk" is a story I've heard growing up, but it hasn't really been made into a feature film. This is the story I've been looking for. As half-American, I know the story of Los Alamos from the Manhattan Project, but again, I haven't seen it on the big screen.
Many Hollywood genre films, such as superhero movies or spy movies, are based on the nuclear threat, which was the bet that Oppenheimer (and the Manhattan Project) made throughout his life. As I was working on these genre films over time, by the time I made "Creed," there were references to Oppenheimer and the idea that key scientists in the Manhattan Project couldn't quite rule out such a thing. There is a possibility that when they detonate the first atomic bomb, they may ignite the atmosphere and destroy the world. At this point you realize that the threat to humanity you saw in the movie has not really been addressed. The desperate act of Oppenheimer's story is the most dramatic of all that I know.
Southern Weekend: Do the two films represent parts of you as British and American respectively?
Nolan: To some extent. I mean, Dunkirk is certainly one of the most familiar and most discussed stories of World War II in Britain. It has mythical status partly because it is seen as a moment of national victory, but it was also a defeat in war. So there's a powerful and interesting tone to that history in reality. Likewise, Oppenheimer was a story of triumph for Americans, but the tragedy was buried in the trial, which to this day remains a deeply ambiguous and controversial story. For better or worse, Oppenheimer changed the world forever. Like it or not, we live in his world. So I think this is the most important American story of World War II and one of the most important stories of all time.
Southern Weekend: You often use the element of time in your movies. The original book "American Prometheus" is basically written in chronological order, but in the movie, you seem to have folded different timelines together. How can the disrupted time create a new interpretation of this character?
Nolan: I knew that I needed to take what I call a "multi-prism" approach to looking at this man's life. By moving freely through time, contrasting different elements of this man's life one after the other, without regard to strict chronological order, I think it is possible to create the juxtaposition that Eisenstein pointed out in the visual editing of the film Type, that is, the idea that lens a plus lens b equals c. I apply it to narrative.In many classic movies, such as "Citizen Kane", if you see different aspects of a person's life, rather than in rigid chronological order, you will see a richer picture, not just The parts are simply added.
I only have three hours to show sixty years of this man, so you need the different pieces of the puzzle to add up to more than the sum in the viewer's mind, both in a temporal sense, in a spatial geographical sense, in a geometric sense. You're trying to convey something to the audience and let it grow on its own in their minds. In film production, we often use a series of different shots to show the spatial environment. The audience will imagine a larger geographical space. If done properly, it can be very effective in making a limited small space look larger than it actually is. many. That's what we did when we shot Los Alamos, trying to give the audience the feeling that this was a large community built in the middle of nowhere. Movies can also do this with their sense of time and other storytelling aspects.
For me, the real meaning of structure and structural approach is to maximize the leverage of narrative, how to tell the story of this man's life and how to make the audience feel that they understand his life.
Oppenheimer (left) and his wife Katie (right) after being emotionally shocked in the movie "Oppenheimer". (Photo courtesy of the film producer)
"We are looking for more things from the subconscious"
Southern Weekend: Your favorite movie genre is thriller, and your producer said "Oppenheimer" is a horror movie . Why is the thriller element so important in your film?
Nolan: It comes down to characterization. Defining and describing character psychology independently outside of narrative is a very typical literary technique in modern novels. If you go back in Western literature, to Chaucer for example, you find a way of creating characters through action, and we understand the characters based on their actions.
Southern Weekend: How to use classical literature?
Nolan: is correct. In cinematic terms, this is a thriller. Because by definition you want to be surprised in this type of movie, you want someone to do something that changes your opinion of them. To me, that's the most powerful form of characterization in film, and that's what I prefer, which is to create character through action.
In "Oppenheimer", although we see things from Oppenheimer's perspective, in a sense he rationalizes his behavior, just like any of us, who are capable of self-deception. The film attempts to expose our perspective and hopefully change your perception of who he was as a person. What I sought in this film was an understanding of Oppenheimer, not a judgment. Being able to explore characters on the big screen with an audience, I think that's why I'm so comfortable doing thrillers.
Southern Weekend: When you conceive a story, does it have to be disturbing and terrifying?
Nolan: No, I don’t think so. I think the term thriller is inadequate, I mean, genre is always inadequate to describe your particular interests. Because once something is identified as a genre, it becomes a formula, which may have limitations. To me, horror is actually a psychological intensity, not necessarily negative. For example, in " Interstellar ", most of the characters' emotions are very positive, but they are also expressed through actions. So it doesn't have to be dark and disturbing, but it has to be intense.
Southern Weekend: Is the emotion that "Oppenheimer" is trying to convey related to the current social mood?
Nolan: was not conscious when I was making the movie. I try not to analyze too much why I do a particular story, or what motivates me to tell it. However, I live in the same world as everyone else, and I am affected by the same things. So if you're very sincere about your intentions and about the things that move you or scare you, then hopefully at the end of the day, it's going to be relatable to an audience in the world we all live in.
Of course, Oppenheimer's story is a cautionary tale about the role and responsibility of scientists for technologies that may have unintended consequences. I'm not sure Oppenheimer's story answers these questions, but I think it's the job of movies to ask questions, not pretend to have answers.
Southern Weekend: Why don’t you like analyzing your self-awareness?
Nolan: When conceiving and creating a film, you need to balance different things, and you need a rational approach to understanding the purpose of what you are doing and how to achieve it. There are certain tricks to the craft, or things you have to be aware of. But after that, you have to leave room for the unconscious, room for instinctive choices. As filmmakers, we are not writing prose or making documentaries, we are looking for more things from the subconscious. So, you have to allow yourself to create freely, unconsciously.
If you're writing or filming with a message in mind, or some kind of deductive statement, to me that's the equivalent of an actor trying to show you something, rather than simply feeling yourself. This is where the pretense begins, and where the sense of realism begins to dissipate.
"You have a responsibility to tell stories in the most sincere way"
Southern Weekend: You are very interested in science, which was used in "Interstellar" and "Tenet". How does science inspire your filmmaking?
Nolan: The few films I have made recently were largely inspired by science. Working with Kip Thorne, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist behind Interstellar, I learned from him that much of what science has to offer is surprising and quite dramatic. "Interstellar" is based on these principles, and "Tenet" is science fiction derived from these principles. "Oppenheimer" is an explicit representation of a community of scientists, and it builds on something I learned from Kip: He taught me that scientists, like artists, work intuitively. They must have an instinctive understanding of new scientific principles. They cannot just prove something mathematically. They must intuitively understand what it means. This was a very startling revelation for me, and it opened up a way for me to understand the human side of these scientists.
We can't think like Oppenheimer, he was dealing with abstract mathematical concepts in physics, and we can't understand those. But the emotion behind it, knowing that there was an intuitive and emotional component to it, allowed me to put that in a film that I and the audience could relate to.
Southern Weekend: Do scientists also use their subconscious to work?
Nolan: I think so. I think intuition is more important than people realize. Yes, many things have intellectual, fixed mathematical structures, but the interesting thing is that Oppenheimer was not a very good mathematician, and neither was Einstein, who was notoriously bad at math. The brilliance of Einstein lies in many of his thought experiments. The inspiration behind "Interstellar" for my brother (Jonathan Nolan, screenwriter of "Interstellar") came largely from one of Einstein's thought experiments. ——Two twins, one traveled through time and space, and came back younger than the one left behind (the "twin paradox" in Einstein's special theory of relativity). He pointed out that if you look at Einstein's original experiment, you will find that there is a kind of sadness in it. I think a lot of it has to do with how intuitive Einstein was about seeing things, and how he expressed those intuitive feelings to his fellow scientists.
In my communication with Kip, he was also able to help me understand a lot of things in this way. Of course, the next step is to go into some kind of territory that is incomprehensible to anyone other than a mathematician or a physicist. But there are still a lot of things that can be communicated in what I call "spiritual terms" - and I think he would resist this expression - or dramatic terms, emotional terms, the kind of things that we as creators can deal with.
Southern Weekend: In both "Creed" and "Oppenheimer", new technologies are discussed like Pandora's Box, which may bring unexpected threats to human beings. Does your movie have a warning tone?
Nolan: The issue of is very complicated. "Tenet" and "Oppenheimer" are ultimately about the same thing, "Tenet" is the sci-fi version, and looking past the surface of this movie, I saw the nuclear threat behind it. When I look back at the film, I see the desire to shove toothpaste back into the tube, to have some very destructive invention withdrawn - the nuclear bomb. Just like many movies involving science fiction concepts such as time and traveling through time and space, people are eager to construct some kind of science fiction scenario that can make the world safer and save the world. When writing Oppenheimer, I felt it was time to face the real story, the irreversible reality, the real threat that changed the world.
Southern Weekend: In "Oppenheimer," you discuss the responsibility of scientists and how they face the consequences of their actions. As an influential filmmaker, do you have a similar responsibility to audiences and society?
Nolan: You have a responsibility to tell stories in the most sincere way, and at the same time, you also have a responsibility to provide entertainment to the audience who pay to see the movie. . As for the responsibility of facing unintended consequences, meaning interpretations of your film, inspiration from your film or whatever, I think artists, filmmakers can't really take on those because they're unpredictable.
I think the same applies to scientists, in the sense that they may not be the best people to look at unintended consequences. They may have a responsibility to explain to the rest of us what they are doing, and how society as a whole deals with the consequences is something that must be dealt with in the aftermath of a nuclear threat.
When you apply this to filmmaking, I think as a filmmaker you have to have the freedom to tell the story the way you feel it needs to be told. Then it plays out, becomes something else, becomes people's interpretation. I'm not sure how much responsibility you can take.
Southern Weekend: The impact and interpretation it causes may be beyond control.
Nolan: Of course cannot be controlled. Just because you can't control it, I think it's impossible to think of it as a responsibility, otherwise it's going to kill artists, kill filmmakers of all kinds. I think they have to be free to put out the work however they want.
And scientists, look at the story of Oppenheimer, he tried to have an opinion on how to use the weapons he created, but failed to do so effectively. It's always up to someone else, actually someone other than the scientist, to take on it. Part of the conflict between scientists and military personnel in the film is that to scientists the possibility of an atomic bomb is indeed a fact of nature when atoms split apart, it is a law of nature and a process they cannot control or suppress, but the military Fang believes that this is a technology that can be controlled by humans. I think the scientists are ultimately right, it is a fact of nature, and a fact of nature can be used to do good or practical things, but it cannot be suppressed.
Southern Weekend: is like a movie?
Nolan: Yeah, luckily the movie is nowhere near that important.
Southern Weekend reporter Li Muyan Southern Weekend intern Wen Ruomei Tang Yaqi
